CaffeFreudMeeting 16122007

[8:15]  [2007/12/16 6:04]  IM: Lapsus Weinstein: "Paradoxical Situations in Leadership", This will be the topic of our today's meeting at Caffe Freud, 9am SLT, at Elegua 131, 237, 22
[8:56]  You: hi :-)
[8:57]  IM: Keef Korobase: wait!!...we are too many yet!!
[8:57]  IM: Keef Korobase: cannot breath!!!
[8:57]  SwAy Benelli is Online
[8:57]  IM: Keef Korobase: :P
[8:57]  IM: Lapsus Weinstein: too laggy
[8:57]  Salahzar Stenvaag: hi, ppl :)
[8:57]  Alaya Kumaki: hi salahzar
[8:58]  Keef Korobase: Greetings!
[8:58]  You: hi beautiful people!
[8:58]  Salahzar Stenvaag: :)
[8:58]  You: (it: bella gente)
[8:58]  any1 Gynoid: Hey everybody! im helping organize a holiday party... luckily they put me incharge of media relations... so i've spun it ... so as not exclude any religious....or beliefs... .. I CAN SEND U AN INVITATION... cheeers!
[8:58]  Keef Korobase: lol
[8:59]  any1 Gynoid gave you Invitation to My Holiday Party!!! Please Join Us!.
[8:59]  Keef Korobase: when should be that?
[8:59]  You: ty
[8:59]  You: as you see we have here today a TRUE leader
[8:59]  Nadezda Markova: thx
[8:59]  You: hi any1 :-)
[9:00]  You: you too Nadezda :-)
[9:00]  any1 Gynoid: 22nd December in 6 days.. Saturday from 12:30 to 9pm
[9:00]  any1 Gynoid: the best bit will be the poetry at 5pm... i assure u
[9:00]  Nadezda Markova: hi, lapsus
[9:00]  any1 Gynoid: Poetry was the highlight of our peace festival... 1st dec.. 4 sure
[9:01]  Keef Korobase: nice to hear...I see what I can do...will be at parent house on sat 22
[9:02]  Keef Korobase: btw nice hat Alaya ! ;)
[9:02]  any1 Gynoid: i've been nominated for leadership in US Democratic Party of SL... im very interested in your topic today
[9:02]  01 Hifeng: hey... event is here?
[9:02]  A group member named Lapsus Weinstein gave you Invitation to My Holiday Party!!! Please Join Us!.
[9:02]  Keef Korobase: Greetings 01
[9:02]  Keef Korobase: lol
[9:02]  01 Hifeng: or at that sign's teleport location...
[9:02]  any1 Gynoid: Hiya 01! ur invited to my Holiday Party love!!! i will send an invite...
[9:03]  Keef Korobase: meeting is here dear..
[9:03]  01 Hifeng: buahaha
[9:03]  You: any1 FOR PRESIDENT !!!!!!!
[9:03]  01 Hifeng: thanks, lol xP
[9:03]  Keef Korobase: think already she is :P
[9:03]  any1 Gynoid: lol MUWAH!!!! HA! HA! HA! HA!... now the lunatics are truly in charge of asylum lol
[9:03]  Kira Ducrot is Offline
[9:04]  You: hi 01, are you a CIA invited?
[9:04]  01 Hifeng: ?
[9:04]  You: (we are opening our relationships)
[9:04]  01 Hifeng: nah
[9:05]  You: also CIA uses DEBIAN
[9:05]  You: this is a SOOP
[9:05]  You: ops
[9:05]  any1 Gynoid: CIA is ???
[9:05]  01 Hifeng: lol
[9:05]  You: SCOOP
[9:06]  Keef Korobase: is that the kickstart for the meeting's topic?
[9:06]  You: yes Keef
[9:06]  You: ty for a new word
[9:06]  You: kickstart
[9:06]  SustainableLove Westland: hi
[9:06]  Phill Rosca is Offline
[9:06]  Keef Korobase: hehe..u r welcome..
[9:06]  Keef Korobase: Greetings Sus!
[9:06]  Alaya Kumaki: lol
[9:07]  SustainableLove Westland: thanks
[9:07]  You: hi Sus*
[9:07]  Keef Korobase: is it fine if I call u Sus?
[9:07]  Alaya Kumaki: so who will give the first kick in?
[9:08]  Keef Korobase: "Paradoxical Situations in Leadership"
[9:08]  Keef Korobase: who did come up with that?
[9:08]  Keef Korobase: out come the culprit...
[9:08]  Keef Korobase: ;)
[9:08]  You: you, Keef :)
[9:08]  Keef Korobase: lol
[9:08]  Alaya Kumaki: ah
[9:08]  Keef Korobase: wasn't me!!
[9:08]  Keef Korobase: :P
[9:08]  any1 Gynoid: you think leadership is fun... but its sh*t... everyone resents you... from what i've seen..... make me anything BUT leader IMHO
[9:09]  01 Hifeng: lol
[9:09]  any1 Gynoid: you want to get griefed... become a leader
[9:09]  Alaya Kumaki: any , no one choose to be leader, realy, its a natural charisma and u got it!!!
[9:09]  SustainableLove Westland: lol
[9:09]  Nadezda Markova: what paradoxical situations did you have in mind, Keef?
[9:10]  any1 Gynoid: i told those Democrats a million times.. im not a leader... im a creative... and here we are..... ;-(
[9:10]  01 Hifeng: ee...
[9:11]  Keef Korobase: I did not sponsor this Nadez .. :D ...Lapsus is playing 'hot potato' ;)
[9:11]  Alaya Kumaki: people do like to follow creative poeple
[9:11]  Nadezda Markova: hmmm
[9:11]  any1 Gynoid: sorry.... i keep jumping in as a psychometric star.... somebody else.. please share your leadership FUN... lol
[9:11]  Nadezda Markova: anyone have any paradoxical situations theye've experienced?
[9:11]  Alaya Kumaki: but not dominant one
[9:11]  Keef Korobase: never been in the position so cannot tell ^^
[9:12]  Alaya Kumaki: what is a paradoxical situation, who can explain it
[9:12]  any1 Gynoid: SL leadership... for example club ownership... or manager-ship.... is absolute hell..... ive been there done that..... u want to have a sh*tty time in SL.. try managing a club... no fun '-(
[9:12]  Keef Korobase: lol
[9:12]  Keef Korobase: right any1!
[9:12]  Nadezda Markova: well, a paradox usually has some internal contradiction that can't be resolved
[9:13]  Keef Korobase: like a leader being leaded ? ;)
[9:13]  Alaya Kumaki: so beiing a leader and not wanting to be one , is a contradiction
[9:13]  01 Hifeng: nah... the problem is that sl is cute 3d game-like thing, and we don't think we will have to work ;))
[9:13]  01 Hifeng: but leader have to work xPP
[9:14]  01 Hifeng: it has some funny elements... but a lots of work too
[9:14]  Nadezda Markova: a paradox is that sl seems to be a 3d game, but there are real people on the other end of all the avatars, who are deadly serious
[9:14]  myriam Martinek is Online
[9:14]  SustainableLove Westland: Im still new to SL, but it seems to me that there is a little of looking for some kind of leadership, as well as a feeling that one could lead something
[9:14]  any1 Gynoid: if you in any organization.. it becomes obvious too quickly that the ppl in charge are insane or idiots or evil... or some combination of these...... and then u think..... gee if i was in charge... WTF... could not be worse
[9:15]  Nadezda Markova: a paradox could be that people are resentfuf if you don't do what they want you (ask you to,for), but also resentful and guilty, i fyou do too much for them
[9:15]  SustainableLove Westland: yes
[9:16]  You: hi Junko
[9:16]  IM: Keef Korobase: si parlava di dominante e succube o sbaglio ? non mi ricordo neanche il titolo della discussione di oggi ! lol
[9:16]  Nadezda Markova: maybe people's unstable commitment-- or wavering commitments-- to things in SL creates paradoxes for leaders, whoare trying to accomplish relatively long-term goals
[9:16]  Junko Umaga: in here
[9:16]  SwAy Benelli is Online
[9:16]  any1 Gynoid: oh yes... its a fine line between empowerment and getting stuff done.... leaders often overburden themselves and suffer stress.... and depression... overwork... we can't let stuff fail... so we work our *sssses off the make it succeed.. its a death spiral...
[9:16]  You: come in :)
[9:16]  Alaya Kumaki: they want to look like they are the one who know how to give ideras and cant receive somme, (comments included)
[9:17]  01 Hifeng: not me xP
[9:17]  Nadezda Markova: not to mention the possibly uncertain commitment of the leaders
[9:17]  01 Hifeng: afk
[9:17]  Nadezda Markova: It's so easy to just disappear here-- withtout any consequences
[9:18]  Alaya Kumaki: than what is a paradoxical lerdership in tree words
[9:18]  myriam Martinek is Offline
[9:18]  any1 Gynoid: sssshhhhhh... im listening to music in the background... (u shud turn urs off entirely)... but Bad Company is playing on http://216.180.250.4:8000 shhhhhhh lol
[9:18]  Alaya Kumaki: hi bomi
[9:18]  You: welcome Bomi!
[9:19]  Alias Boyd is Offline
[9:19]  Bomi Blinker: hello
[9:19]  Keef Korobase: Greetings Bomi
[9:19]  Bomi Blinker: *bow*
[9:19]  Salahzar Stenvaag: ok, sorry, I was away for a while, but it looks very interesting for me this thing of leadership. and especially leaders that don't want to be. I also think that it is possible to do things without leadership or better with shared leadership.
[9:20]  Alaya Kumaki: leaders ship whotout sharing the rersult, or non cooperative organisation can be a situation of paradox dont u tinks so
[9:20]  Alaya Kumaki: whitout
[9:20]  01 Hifeng: back
[9:20]  Keef Korobase: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
[9:20]  01 Hifeng: lol
[9:21]  Alaya Kumaki: lol
[9:21]  Salahzar Stenvaag: can you define "leadership"
[9:21]  Junko Umaga: I guess depends on the size of the group and the context
[9:21]  You: (cool music any thanx)
[9:21]  any1 Gynoid: we should discuss the formal and informal organizations... im a good example of an informal leader.... eventually the formal org comes to recognize that role.... and here we are... lol
[9:21]  Maxwelle Gregan is Online
[9:21]  Keef Korobase: mmm yes and no...
[9:22]  You: (now you can listen to it also here inworld)
[9:22]  Junko Umaga: earned leadership vs. ascribed??
[9:22]  any1 Gynoid: lol
[9:22]  Keef Korobase: I think that 'groups' tend to follow cycles of structuring...
[9:22]  Keef Korobase: at some point some revert to unstructured status...
[9:22]  any1 Gynoid: there is a difference between leadership and supervision....
[9:22]  Keef Korobase: other evolves into fully fledged organizations
[9:22]  any1 Gynoid: leaders lead by example
[9:22]  Salahzar Stenvaag: this is interesting what I'm finding on Wikipedia
[9:22]  MystiTool HUD 1.0.21: Entering chat range: Blue Hanfoi (17m)
[9:22]  Salahzar Stenvaag: "One of the differentiating factors between Management and Leadership is the ability or even necessity to inspire. A Leader, one who can instill passion and direction to an individual or group of individuals, will be using psychology to affect that group either consciously or unconsciously."
[9:22]  any1 Gynoid: supervisors are *ssssholes...IMHO... lol
[9:23]  Keef Korobase: lol
[9:23]  Alaya Kumaki: is there a objectiv that leade people toghether or did the follow someone who direct and create someting in whitc thy do whant to participate
[9:23]  You: hi Aliya:)
[9:23]  SustainableLove Westland: hmm thats interesting
[9:23]  01 Hifeng: huh any1
[9:23]  Junko Umaga: leadership vs. authority
[9:23]  Bomi Blinker: i must say supervisors are not leaders where i work
[9:23]  any1 Gynoid: big time!...
[9:23]  Aliya Ariantho: Hi Lapsus :)
[9:23]  any1 Gynoid: i seen that a million times
[9:23]  Alaya Kumaki: lapsus are u the lerder in here?
[9:23]  Alaya Kumaki: r*
[9:24]  Alaya Kumaki: a
[9:24]  any1 Gynoid: no he's an *sssshole... LOL JUST KIDDING!
[9:24]  Bomi Blinker: all the interviews i got to, they are looking for leadership qualities, but when you look at management, they have none
[9:24]  Bomi Blinker: none of the supervisors or management have any influence over the employees work habits
[9:24]  Nadezda Markova: often leaders are at least willing to do a lot of work
[9:24]  Bomi Blinker: lack of leadership
[9:25]  Bomi Blinker: i agree on that nadezda
[9:25]  Alaya Kumaki: do people who look after leaders ,, are those who a kind of qualified to be in paradoxical situation
[9:25]  Junko Umaga: it is unlikely you will be hired based on leadership capablities unless someone is sayg "here the idea and the money.. make it happen"
[9:25]  01 Hifeng: mhm Nadeza, they need to do some work to don't loose people's interest xP
[9:25]  You: you're welcome Marin
[9:26]  Marin Effingham: thanks
[9:26]  Salahzar Stenvaag: Do you agree that "leaders" and "managers" are different abilities?
[9:26]  You: and Blue
[9:26]  Nadezda Markova: if they don't do the work-- and no one does the work-- nothing happens-- there's no group, no mission, or goal to be worked toward
[9:26]  01 Hifeng: exactly
[9:27]  Bomi Blinker: sigh i am lagging
[9:27]  Keef Korobase: yes Sala
[9:27]  Salahzar Stenvaag: so leaders are meanly psicological interesting
[9:27]  Keef Korobase: also I would say that Leadership is innate..management can be learned
[9:27]  Salahzar Stenvaag: not technical or technicians
[9:28]  Josette Chaffe is Offline
[9:28]  Salahzar Stenvaag: actually leadership can be in the open
[9:28]  Salahzar Stenvaag: or hidden
[9:28]  Alaya Kumaki: so mission goal and abilities are the qualities related to lerdership, that in three words what is a paradoxical leadership
[9:28]  Josette Chaffe is Online
[9:28]  Junko Umaga: Everyone has the chance to be a leader given the circumstances
[9:28]  Aliya Ariantho: I think maybe leadership 'styles' can be learned?
[9:28]  Junko Umaga: Some rise to the occasion
[9:28]  Junko Umaga: like Lincoln and Churchill
[9:29]  Aliya Ariantho: Maybe not all the attributes for each one however
[9:29]  Keef Korobase: do not agree Junko
[9:29]  Salahzar Stenvaag: I still don't catch the paradox
[9:29]  Salahzar Stenvaag: can someone explain better?
[9:29]  Nadezda Markova: we haven't gottene to a paradox yet; we're still trying to get a grasp of leadership as an idea
[9:29]  any1 Gynoid: i have a theory (often proven by annecdotes) that if you join a voluntary organization... (like an SL group).. if you keep volunteering to do stuff.... you will become the leaders... eventually.... happened to me.... didn't even ask for it..... lol
[9:29]  Keef Korobase: lol
[9:29]  Alaya Kumaki: to bee leaded when one doesnt whant to, but no way out witout loosing
[9:29]  Nadezda Markova: I agree with any1
[9:30]  01 Hifeng: yes, any1, very true...
[9:30]  Nadezda Markova: if you join, and start doing things, people will look to you to do them, and to lead when they happen
[9:30]  Salahzar Stenvaag: in my organization they wanted to exploit my "visions"
[9:30]  Salahzar Stenvaag: am I a leader?
[9:30]  01 Hifeng: i started by volunteering in someones group, now i have my own xP
[9:30]  Nadezda Markova: it could depend on what role you take in organizing and executing things within the group
[9:30]  Salahzar Stenvaag: I just don't want to be a leader
[9:31]  01 Hifeng: good, more work for me xPP
[9:31]  Salahzar Stenvaag: but love to have effects on ideas and ppl
[9:31]  Salahzar Stenvaag: indirect leadership
[9:31]  Nadezda Markova: there are many important roles; being a leader isn't the only o ne
[9:31]  Alaya Kumaki: not wanting to be leader doesen prevent u to be in a position of taking decision for or on someone one days, position of power
[9:31]  Salahzar Stenvaag: Having a leader is much more effective
[9:32]  any1 Gynoid: cool... we are all leaders in our human potential.... we just have to unfold that potential.....
[9:32]  01 Hifeng: nah
[9:32]  Alaya Kumaki: i do think tha people who a re looking to be led are more isposed to be in paradoxical situation
[9:32]  Junko Umaga: Time for everything to leasd and at times to follow
[9:32]  any1 Gynoid: be the "inner leader".... embrace the Inner Leader.... MUWAH!
[9:32]  Junko Umaga: lead
[9:33]  Junko Umaga: Is democracy anti-thetical to leadership??
[9:33]  Salahzar Stenvaag: no actually democracy
[9:33]  Salahzar Stenvaag: relies on leaders
[9:33]  Merlin Tilling is Online
[9:33]  Salahzar Stenvaag: because of the principle of delegation
[9:33]  Junko Umaga: A pyrimid scheme of leaders?? LOL
[9:34]  Salahzar Stenvaag: and this also in my opinion is why leaders do exist
[9:34]  Alaya Kumaki: in our society we are for my ppoint of view in a hybryde between real democraty and dictatorship
[9:34]  Salahzar Stenvaag: people prefer having somebody to delegate important decisions
[9:34]  Nadezda Markova: which society, Alaya?
[9:34]  Junko Umaga: representational dictorship??
[9:34]  any1 Gynoid: no.... Pythagoras...... the Ionian teacher in India.. and the ruler of a City State... the great philosopher and mathematician.... was way wasy democratic in his thinking
[9:34]  SustainableLove Westland: I think people look for leadership
[9:34]  any1 Gynoid: Plato
[9:34]  Salahzar Stenvaag: because they are not enough mature to have paritarian approaches
[9:34]  Alaya Kumaki: inmy contry
[9:34]  any1 Gynoid: Aristotle
[9:35]  any1 Gynoid: these lads invented democracy
[9:35]  Salahzar Stenvaag: Socrate was "against" democracy
[9:35]  SustainableLove Westland: someone to point them in a direction
[9:35]  any1 Gynoid: and leaders are necessary.. lol
[9:35]  dbbSinger Contepomi: hi may i sit in?
[9:35]  any1 Gynoid: Socrates is dead.... lol
[9:35]  Salahzar Stenvaag: in the sense that he saw that democracy at the end tended to listen to leaders
[9:35]  Junko Umaga: visionary = "Leader" ??
[9:35]  Keef Korobase: sure dbb
[9:35]  Salahzar Stenvaag: who weren't in the right
[9:35]  any1 Gynoid: condemned to die
[9:35]  dbbSinger Contepomi: thank you
[9:35]  Salahzar Stenvaag: byt could drag the people
[9:35]  Nadezda Markova: leaders are necessary; but often become a distraction or burden to the group[[ that's a paradox
[9:35]  any1 Gynoid: socrates... gr8 example... he was the anti-leader....
[9:36]  Bernard Halcali is Offline
[9:36]  any1 Gynoid: anti-expert
[9:36]  Salahzar Stenvaag: yes everything coming from ourselves
[9:36]  any1 Gynoid: anti intellectual in chief
[9:36]  Alaya Kumaki: lerdership is than contradicting democraty
[9:36]  Aliya Ariantho: The real paradox may reside in the idea of 'distributed leadership'
[9:36]  Salahzar Stenvaag: leader, or the teacher was just a "facilitator"
[9:36]  Aliya Ariantho: Which in tunr relates to effective delegation
[9:36]  Phill Rosca is Offline
[9:36]  Anubis Hartunian is Online
[9:36]  Aliya Ariantho: If one enables a team to operate effectively
[9:36]  Salahzar Stenvaag: I don't think that distributed leadership is the same as delegation
[9:36]  Aliya Ariantho: And to make their own decisions
[9:37]  Aliya Ariantho: then everyone in it leads in some way
[9:37]  Keef Korobase: what is distributed leagership?
[9:37]  Keef Korobase: leader*
[9:37]  Aliya Ariantho: and makes their own mistakes
[9:37]  Aliya Ariantho: Exactly that Keef
[9:37]  Aliya Ariantho: It is allowing team members to contribute
[9:37]  Aliya Ariantho: individual strengths
[9:37]  Aliya Ariantho: as no one person can have them all
[9:38]  Aliya Ariantho: so per se
[9:38]  Aliya Ariantho: it involves leading in differetnt aspects
[9:38]  Aliya Ariantho: and is task oriented
[9:38]  Aliya Ariantho: So everyone is a leader
[9:39]  Aliya Ariantho: In that model
[9:39]  Keef Korobase: I'm not reading anything...was the question too hard? :P
[9:39]  Aliya Ariantho: and so it contradicts the definition of the term
[9:40]  any1 Gynoid: i keep coming back to about 170 years ago philosophy.... as a key to leadership and common sense BTW... Vivekananda..... u need 2 things to make the world a better place (to lead).... a vision... and a process to get there.. ... the leader facilitates the definition of both... then (possibly other) leaders.. facilitate the execution of the process... in a nutshell... that's it
[9:40]  any1 Gynoid: how things happen
[9:41]  Junko Umaga: sumimasen
[9:42]  any1 Gynoid: Knowing "how things happen" is the goal of human potential facilitation... what i do
[9:42]  Alaya Kumaki: and if the leaders have to ash what is opinion of its member about the facilityes .. should he accept theirs view any
[9:42]  any1 Gynoid: always.... follow the energy
[9:42]  any1 Gynoid: yes
[9:43]  Aliya Ariantho: Agreed
[9:43]  any1 Gynoid: u guys got a great topic here... gr8 energy.. well done!!!
[9:43]  Keef Korobase: I got to go...cya chaps! :)
[9:43]  any1 Gynoid: gr8 leadership lol
[9:43]  SustainableLove Westland: hmm...knowing how things happen
[9:43]  Alaya Kumaki: and when a leaders doenst accept view of members does he pput them in paradoxical situation
[9:44]  any1 Gynoid: always avoid that....
[9:44]  SustainableLove Westland: Id think so
[9:44]  You: ciao Keef:)
[9:44]  01 Hifeng: ouch, accidential click xP
[9:44]  01 Hifeng: uh
[9:44]  any1 Gynoid: the idea is that leaders own the "process" and the team owns the content
[9:44]  Alaya Kumaki: byebye keef!
[9:44]  any1 Gynoid: when u cross those lines... trouble....
[9:45]  any1 Gynoid: its meeting facilitation... in a nutshell
[9:45]  Aliya Ariantho: How is the process determined then?
[9:45]  any1 Gynoid: facilitator cannot control content... or the ownership is lost in a heartbeat
[9:46]  any1 Gynoid: group ownership... is the goal of leadership... always
[9:46]  Alaya Kumaki: can it be that misson or the way chossen to do things are not well undeerstand bye the members as well as by the leaders and that it may influence him to not accepted members opinions
[9:46]  SustainableLove Westland: true
[9:46]  Aliya Ariantho: Surely the process and the content of say a solving a problem --- are interdependent
[9:46]  Aliya Ariantho: And need devising together?
[9:46]  SustainableLove Westland: lol
[9:47]  Aliya Ariantho: And anyway unless process evolves dynamically
[9:47]  Aliya Ariantho: As the task develops
[9:47]  Aliya Ariantho: Then there may not be a solution
[9:48]  any1 Gynoid: i am ruthlessly tactical... in my thinking.... there is a basic process.... for all decision making..... idea generation..... information sharing..... and choice (decision-making)... u just keep repeating that... its like Orgone energy.. ... there is a climax of energy... and the love comes out....
[9:48]  Aliya Ariantho: :)
[9:48]  SustainableLove Westland: hmmm
[9:48]  Aliya Ariantho: There was definitely paradox in that statement lol
[9:48]  You: recursivity, any1?
[9:49]  Aliya Ariantho: "ruthlessly tactical" and "love comes out"
[9:49]  Salahzar Stenvaag: so like an experiment: learn from the errors. You missed the evaluation phase
[9:50]  any1 Gynoid: This is the textbook... of facilitation.... "Techniques of Structured Problem Solving"... by Arthur VanGundy... 1988
[9:50]  any1 Gynoid: that's one aspect of leadership
[9:50]  Bernard Halcali is Offline
[9:50]  Alaya Kumaki: or that evaluation, mmmm, does the leaders evaluate him or herself as much as members do
[9:50]  any1 Gynoid: gr8 meetings
[9:50]  any1 Gynoid: that's what i do
[9:50]  Salahzar Stenvaag: there are leaders who don't evaluate and don't cope with the group.
[9:50]  Aliya Ariantho: Who chairs your meetings Any1? *just asking :)
[9:52]  any1 Gynoid: ideally.. the facilitator is neutral... there is a "content" owner.... like CEO.. you have a protagnonist, and antagonist.... and then a diverse group... the mission is to get protagonist and antagonist to communication and startin working together.... that's "Intervention" in a nutshell.....
[9:52]  any1 Gynoid: fixes broken organizations...
[9:52]  Aliya Ariantho: So its a dialectic then?
[9:52]  Salahzar Stenvaag: Majority and Minoritity?
[9:53]  Nadezda Markova: have to go, sorry
[9:53]  Aliya Ariantho: Aaah yes so actually we are talking here about teams at different stages
[9:53]  any1 Gynoid: and most everything else... that's the problem...
[9:53]  You: bye Nadezda, ty :)
[9:54]  any1 Gynoid: this is beyond leadership..... usually you hire professionals to deal with this level of issues...
[9:54]  Aliya Ariantho: If its a broken organisation I can see how that approach woudl be useful
[9:54]  Alaya Kumaki: so if the leader is a facylitator and the one who make intervention... what may happen that it become paradoxical make it become paradoxical
[9:54]  any1 Gynoid: headshrinkers lol
[9:54]  any1 Gynoid: like us
[9:54]  any1 Gynoid: lol
[9:54]  Aliya Ariantho: But not for a fully functioning team
[9:54]  Salahzar Stenvaag: Might I say that in every organizations they can go broken
[9:54]  Aliya Ariantho: Yes
[9:54]  Aliya Ariantho: true
[9:54]  Salahzar Stenvaag: so leadership shoul also prevent this happening
[9:55]  Salahzar Stenvaag: and since Leader uses psychology and has "carisma"
[9:55]  Aliya Ariantho: Through developing the skills of the members and clarifying expectation and role
[9:55]  Salahzar Stenvaag: he/she can deal with problems better than just a manager
[9:55]  any1 Gynoid: indeed... leadership.. should try to prevent it.... but sh*t happens.... usually on day 4 of a 4 day retreat lol
[9:56]  any1 Gynoid: 5 day...lol
[9:56]  Aliya Ariantho: What is charisma I wonder?
[9:56]  Aliya Ariantho: Can that be learnt?
[9:56]  any1 Gynoid: im too close to that question... u tell me
[9:56]  Salahzar Stenvaag: I think that charisma is one of the best qualities a leader should have
[9:56]  Salahzar Stenvaag: and imply empathy
[9:56]  Aliya Ariantho: Well we need to unpack 'charisma'
[9:57]  any1 Gynoid: okies.. survey method..
[9:57]  Aliya Ariantho: What do you need to ahve to be charismatic?
[9:57]  any1 Gynoid: divide and conquer
[9:57]  Alaya Kumaki: any .. as i say it.. at the biginning,, and u have that..
[9:57]  dbbSinger Contepomi: attractiveness
[9:57]  Aliya Ariantho: Nope
[9:57]  Aliya Ariantho: I dont think so
[9:57]  any1 Gynoid: big t*ts... doesnt hurt... lol
[9:57]  Salahzar Stenvaag: refers to a rare trait found in certain human personalities usually including extreme charm and a 'magnetic' quality of personality and/or appearance along with innate and powerfully sophisticated personal communicability and persuasiveness.
[9:57]  Salahzar Stenvaag: (from wikipedia)
[9:58]  Aliya Ariantho: How about deep concern for others?
[9:58]  Salahzar Stenvaag: from the greek "gift from the gods"
[9:58]  dbbSinger Contepomi: not neccessarily physical
[9:58]  Alaya Kumaki: wow sahlazar
[9:58]  dbbSinger Contepomi: magnetism
[9:58]  Aliya Ariantho: :)
[9:58]  any1 Gynoid: uncontrollable flatulence... lol
[9:58]  dbbSinger Contepomi: you captivate and inspire
[9:58]  Alaya Kumaki: lol
[9:58]  Alaya Kumaki: inspire
[9:58]  dbbSinger Contepomi: cause others to believe in what you believe
[9:58]  Alaya Kumaki: so the paradoxical leaders ship doesnt inspire
[9:59]  dbbSinger Contepomi: just by being you
[9:59]  any1 Gynoid: you embody the corporate mission... it is you.... in a sense...
[9:59]  Alaya Kumaki: but lead u to the oposite of ur own values doesnt it,,
[9:59]  any1 Gynoid: a perfect citizen
[10:00]  Aliya Ariantho: You cannot be an inspirational or charismatic leader if you abnegate your own values I feel?
[10:00]  Salahzar Stenvaag: I worked in "political" groups: they worked much better if a person used leadership WITH charisma
[10:00]  any1 Gynoid: model citizen....
[10:00]  any1 Gynoid: ideal citizen
[10:00]  any1 Gynoid: what ppls like us have been doing for hundreds of years
[10:00]  Salahzar Stenvaag: so it is indeed a useful shortcut to get things done
[10:00]  01 Hifeng: yes, you can, but you have to be good actor, lol
[10:00]  Aliya Ariantho: A very good one :)
[10:01]  SustainableLove Westland: charisma is very helpful...and can make up for a fair amount of lack of skill
[10:01]  01 Hifeng: yeah, so most won't make it ;)
[10:01]  Alaya Kumaki: but popple who dont have ur mission , can have their charisma and lead a campaing against urs
[10:01]  Aliya Ariantho: Or disingenous more like
[10:01]  Salahzar Stenvaag: only problem is that after a while charismatic leaders they tend to be attacked
[10:01]  Alaya Kumaki: voila
[10:01]  Aliya Ariantho: Touche
[10:01]  any1 Gynoid: IMHO... a schmoozer... schmoozing is key..... telling ppls what they want to hear... and its all for a purpose .... a goal... a vision... and a proces to get there.... lol... full circle
[10:01]  SustainableLove Westland: enthusiasm can cause people to follow
[10:02]  any1 Gynoid: but enthusiasts are stupid... right?
[10:02]  Alaya Kumaki: and the other leaders , who "attacked"" just is a leraders
[10:02]  Aliya Ariantho: So enthusiam ---
[10:02]  Alaya Kumaki: is jjust an other leaders
[10:02]  Aliya Ariantho: Is an attribute of charisma then
[10:02]  any1 Gynoid: enthusiam... the feeling with pass.... get real! lol
[10:02]  Salahzar Stenvaag: and produce other problems, so the shortcut can become a problem.. This is why I prefer some other ways of federated leaderships..
[10:02]  01 Hifeng: well, i'm realist, lol
[10:02]  Alaya Kumaki: with his follower, and his charisma
[10:02]  Aliya Ariantho: It also means 'closeness to God' in Ancient Greek I think?
[10:02]  01 Hifeng: but it's important to make things at least sound enthusiastic
[10:03]  Aliya Ariantho: Yep
[10:03]  Salahzar Stenvaag: The word charisma (from the Greek word χάρισμα (kharisma), "gift" or "divine favor," from kharizesthai, "to favor," from kharis, "favor":
[10:03]  Aliya Ariantho: *looks keen
[10:03]  Aliya Ariantho: Wow
[10:03]  SustainableLove Westland: IMHO it is the "energy" of enthusiasm that does the trick...and can't really be faked
[10:03]  Aliya Ariantho: These meetings are always very informative :)
[10:03]  any1 Gynoid: woah Aliya!... now ur in my back yard lol
[10:03]  Aliya Ariantho: Agreed SustaubleLove
[10:04]  Aliya Ariantho: And hiow would you like me to sweep it Any1?
[10:04]  Alaya Kumaki: how can u stad against the oposite leadership whitout biginning mislead in a defense that bring u to act the oposited way u tend to do in ur group
[10:04]  Salahzar Stenvaag: We in Italy we often have people who have strong charisma
[10:04]  Aliya Ariantho: Or rather how would you get me to sweep it? lol
[10:04]  any1 Gynoid: Charisma is a gift from G-d...
[10:04]  any1 Gynoid: yup
[10:04]  Salahzar Stenvaag: and can drag the people, but I'm unsure they can really be useful for the people
[10:04]  Aliya Ariantho: I disagree
[10:04]  Aliya Ariantho: It can be learnt through acting
[10:04]  Aliya Ariantho: as someone said just now
[10:04]  Aliya Ariantho: If you act long enough
[10:05]  Aliya Ariantho: You become that person
[10:05]  any1 Gynoid: yes... acting... is a key skill.....
[10:05]  Aliya Ariantho: Very appropriate idea for SL eh?
[10:05]  any1 Gynoid: but .. its the "sincere" quality... the deep belief... that can't be faked...
[10:05]  01 Hifeng: i don't know... actually, defining who you are isn't that easy
[10:06]  Aliya Ariantho: Thats what comes from caring for others
[10:06]  01 Hifeng: so that whole talking about "you become that person"... hmmm...
[10:06]  any1 Gynoid: in RL i mean.. because in RL 70% of commm is non-verbal......
[10:06]  Aliya Ariantho: If you sincerley care about your team
[10:06]  Aliya Ariantho: or colleagues
[10:06]  any1 Gynoid: here in SL its almost all verbal
[10:06]  Aliya Ariantho: AND act the charismatic
[10:06]  Aliya Ariantho: Youve got it made
[10:06]  Aliya Ariantho: They are not contradictory
[10:07]  Alaya Kumaki: does the paradoxical leadership is not found on belief to
[10:07]  Aliya Ariantho: They are complementary
[10:07]  any1 Gynoid: rule #1.... when you are speaking publically..... 1st message = ... let them know you care.... so that's a key part of setting the stage for charisma
[10:07]  You: charisma, charity, (taking) care... same root...
[10:07]  any1 Gynoid: Charisma is a relationship ... of trust.... IMHO
[10:08]  Aliya Ariantho: I am sweeping your yard biw Any1 - totally agree :)
[10:08]  any1 Gynoid: lol
[10:08]  01 Hifeng: lol, moments of silence... xP
[10:08]  Aliya Ariantho: Moments of thought
[10:09]  Aliya Ariantho: And listening
[10:09]  Lucian Iwish is Offline
[10:09]  Alaya Kumaki: so if u got believ ant people trust un, dont u think u cant be put in a situation where u can be lead to act in a fashion that u regret , for ur values...
[10:09]  Aliya Ariantho: Leaders are very good listeners
[10:09]  Aliya Ariantho: When the moment is right
[10:09]  Aliya Ariantho: Yes
[10:09]  Aliya Ariantho: Alaya
[10:09]  Aliya Ariantho: Like in cults
[10:09]  Alaya Kumaki: and sect
[10:09]  any1 Gynoid: there are these human insecurity... issues.... Charisma is about breaking through all that.... beyond "ACCEPTANCE" and "RESPECT" to moving on to solving real challenges.....
[10:09]  Aliya Ariantho: Yep
[10:10]  01 Hifeng: mhm
[10:10]  Aliya Ariantho: Its the acceptance of change and the management of that then
[10:10]  any1 Gynoid: Human INsecurity is "THE" issue... in general
[10:10]  Aliya Ariantho: Yes
[10:10]  any1 Gynoid: Comedy Team of Aliya and Any... lol... we'll be here all week! lol
[10:11]  Alaya Kumaki: acceptance of change is a key i think
[10:11]  Aliya Ariantho: That was a serious statement
[10:11]  Aliya Ariantho: :)
[10:11]  any1 Gynoid: yes dear
[10:11]  Aliya Ariantho: If you want comedy I do that after hours
[10:12]  Aliya Ariantho: One of the key tasks of a good leader is to get people to see the point of change and ---
[10:12]  Aliya Ariantho: through effective timing and pace
[10:12]  Aliya Ariantho: Avoid innovation overlaod
[10:12]  Alaya Kumaki: because belief and rigidity lead to paradoxical situation , and the wary out is openness flexibility
[10:13]  any1 Gynoid: i think its about intimacy.... Charmisma does not exist without intimacy
[10:13]  any1 Gynoid: intimacy is trust...
[10:13]  Aliya Ariantho: *sweeps faster and more effectively
[10:13]  any1 Gynoid: LOL
[10:13]  any1 Gynoid: maybe its the "illusion" of intimacy
[10:13]  dbbSinger Contepomi: hmm charismatics speak to people's lives
[10:13]  Alaya Kumaki: sorru everybody, i just witeness someting i never saw
[10:13]  Aliya Ariantho: Yes more acting
[10:13]  any1 Gynoid: pretension is a big factor with Charismatic ppls...
[10:14]  Alaya Kumaki: out side is a snow storm and i eard tunder and saw a
lithning
[10:14]  Aliya Ariantho: Wow
[10:14]  dbbSinger Contepomi: why do you say that?
[10:15]  Aliya Ariantho: any1 - what did you mean by pretension?
[10:15]  any1 Gynoid: we have not addressed... the role of Charismatic Religion..... Pentecostal Xtians.... Chassids...... Sufi Dervishes.... that's part of the scope of a discussion of charisma
[10:15]  any1 Gynoid: they "do" charisma
[10:15]  Aliya Ariantho: If someone beleives in something whoileheartedly
[10:15]  any1 Gynoid: systematically
[10:15]  You: ([10:14] Alaya Kumaki: out side is a snow storm and i eard tunder and saw a lithning RL ?)
[10:15]  Aliya Ariantho: They cannot be pretentious really
[10:15]  dbbSinger Contepomi: yea
[10:16]  Aliya Ariantho: Like that list of examples you just cited
[10:16]  Alaya Kumaki: nature give charisma.. i think its in it like flowers do atract and smell of fruits
[10:16]  Aliya Ariantho: And Jim Morrison
[10:16]  Aliya Ariantho: He was charismatic
[10:17]  any1 Gynoid: there is a religous practice of Charisma..... its can be a systematic... unfolding of your soul... not just a circumstantial....happening....
[10:17]  Aliya Ariantho: Wasnt there even a branch of the Church called the Charismatics too?
[10:17]  Aliya Ariantho: Aaah
[10:17]  Aliya Ariantho: ty
[10:17]  01 Hifeng: ouch
[10:17]  any1 Gynoid: tons of charismatic sects and religous orgs.... big time....
[10:17]  IM: Alaya Kumaki: no  but  temperature   is  not  usuall
[10:18]  any1 Gynoid: American Evangelicals..... are charismatic.... right wing thinkers.....
[10:18]  any1 Gynoid: as well as Sufi Dervishes.. going back 300 years or more
[10:18]  Aliya Ariantho: But did the Sufis have leaders as such?
[10:19]  any1 Gynoid: My fav are Reconstructionists... Judaism.... wonderful... charismatic... thinkers..... definately on our wavelength of progressive goals
[10:19]  Aliya Ariantho: Surely they influneced each other into a heightened state of fervour?
[10:19]  Aliya Ariantho: So it was more of a mass hysteria?
[10:20]  Aliya Ariantho: Brought on by a shared interest
[10:20]  Alaya Kumaki: influens , is also a leadership quality , capabilyty to influenc
[10:20]  Aliya Ariantho: Can oen leader induce mass hysteria?
[10:20]  Aliya Ariantho: I dont think so
[10:20]  dbbSinger Contepomi: cultural
[10:21]  Alaya Kumaki: i call those agitator
[10:21]  Alaya Kumaki: nnot leader
[10:21]  Aliya Ariantho: Anyway Tolstoy made some interesting observations on historical leadership
[10:21]  Aliya Ariantho: As an appendix to War and Peace
[10:22]  any1 Gynoid: The Sufis.... are the seedcoRN.... when there is religous oppression.. they keep it alive... and revive... spiritual practices... for the ppls... when the surpression is relieved..... but i don't want to characterize Sufis as Islamic... there are Jewish Sufis and Xtian.. and Hindu... big time... they all believe that there is a common core of religious belief..
[10:22]  any1 Gynoid: Charisma includes.... the ability to supress... your outward. evangelism... and wait out a storm...
[10:22]  dbbSinger Contepomi: sounds like reduction
[10:22]  You: Tolstoj :)
[10:22]  any1 Gynoid: and bring it back
[10:23]  any1 Gynoid: hunker down
[10:23]  Aliya Ariantho: So do they believe in divine scriptures?
[10:23]  Aliya Ariantho: These sufis?
[10:23]  Aliya Ariantho: To guide them?
[10:24]  dbbSinger Contepomi: or an authoritative figure?
[10:24]  any1 Gynoid: that's a whole nuther discussion. hunni... u can check up on Wikipedia
[10:24]  Aliya Ariantho: Ooops sorry
[10:24]  Aliya Ariantho: *drops broom
[10:24]  Alaya Kumaki: i think sufi belive in spoken words more than scripture
[10:24]  You: they have in common the love for dance
[10:24]  dbbSinger Contepomi: :)
[10:24]  You: all these ancient 'wise' men (and women)
[10:24]  Alaya Kumaki: real fluide live
[10:24]  any1 Gynoid: i have not written about Sufis yet.... but I have written about Hinduism, Islam and Judaism... on a Internet site...... http://secondlife.prayerchain.org ...
[10:25]  any1 Gynoid: i will write about Sufis some day
[10:25]  Aliya Ariantho: Excellent
[10:25]  Aliya Ariantho: Thanks for the link :)
[10:25]  Alaya Kumaki: they ten to run after live discussion interd of resding
[10:25]  Alaya Kumaki: instead of reading
[10:25]  dbbSinger Contepomi: friends.thanks for the discussion. nice meeting all of you. i'm going off. bye
[10:25]  Aliya Ariantho: Byee dbb
[10:26]  any1 Gynoid: LOL...
[10:26]  You: hi dbbSinger :) bye and thank you
[10:26]  Alaya Kumaki: byebye dbb
[10:26]  any1 Gynoid: in Australia... "we are going off" means.. we are partying hardy... going off the rails...
[10:26]  any1 Gynoid: that's what i like to hear! lol
[10:26]  Alaya Kumaki: loll
[10:26]  Alaya Kumaki: in the bushes
[10:26]  any1 Gynoid: lol
[10:27]  Alaya Kumaki: thats why the people there ar e caled busheman
[10:27]  any1 Gynoid: don't say "bushman".... that is a like a major insult in Africa..... do go there
[10:27]  any1 Gynoid: dont' lol
[10:27]  Alaya Kumaki: lolo to late iv said it
[10:27]  Aliya Ariantho: I also must go - thank you very much for some interestign ideas and the chance to discuss in a non-threatening environment ---- guess thats because no leader stamped their mark too much on the group??
[10:27]  any1 Gynoid: how dare you! lol
[10:27]  Aliya Ariantho: *smiles picks up broom and rides off on it ------
[10:27]  Alaya Kumaki: just a litl joke
[10:28]  any1 Gynoid: ROTFL!!! JK
[10:28]  Alaya Kumaki: ^^))
[10:28]  Aliya Ariantho: Byee guys
[10:28]  You: ciao Aliya
[10:28]  Alaya Kumaki: byebye aliya(nice name )
[10:29]  You: salire
[10:29]  You: psalterium
[10:29]  MystiTool HUD 1.0.21: Entering chat range: Kariin Thorne (17m)
[10:29]  You: dance again lol
[10:29]  any1 Gynoid: is it nakey time now?
[10:29]  any1 Gynoid: lol
[10:29]  Alaya Kumaki: loll
[10:29]  Alaya Kumaki: lets swirl
[10:30]  any1 Gynoid: i proposed Streaking through Mecca .. in SL.. as a form of protest...
[10:30]  any1 Gynoid: yesterday...
[10:30]  You: LOL
[10:30]  Alaya Kumaki: wow
[10:30]  any1 Gynoid: the consensus is that it would cause WW III
[10:30]  Alaya Kumaki: loll sure
[10:30]  any1 Gynoid: then there would be peace lol
[10:31]  Alaya Kumaki: they have paradoxycal lerdes
[10:31]  Alaya Kumaki: leaders
[10:31]  any1 Gynoid: smoking holes and bodies lying about ....
[10:31]  Alaya Kumaki: after peaces is nature witout man
[10:31]  any1 Gynoid: so many horrible things happening in RL... OMG... don't get me started
[10:32]  Alaya Kumaki: no i wont... ;));Pp (what have u seen)
[10:32]  any1 Gynoid: Hey Everyone! I would like to be your friends... if we are not yet... Cheers... u don't have to accept
[10:32]  You: cheers any !!!!
[10:33]  Alaya Kumaki: Cheers::)))
[10:33]  You: SustanableLove got asleep ... (?)
[10:33]  You: :(
[10:33]  Salahzar Stenvaag: Nice discussion on leadership
[10:34]  Salahzar Stenvaag: thanks any1 alaya etc
[10:34]  You: tx sal :)
[10:34]  Salahzar Stenvaag: and thanks to Lapsus for offering this place
[10:35]  Salahzar Stenvaag: and the idea of discussion itself
[10:35]  any1 Gynoid: we are eternally grateful to Lapsus.... wonderful lad!!!.... I duv U madly!!! Cheers!
[10:35]  You: that was from Keef
[10:35]  You: :)
[10:35]  Alaya Kumaki: yes , who got this idea?
[10:35]  Alaya Kumaki: was it really keef?
[10:35]  You: you both, if I remember well
[10:36]  01 Hifeng: ok, going ;). bye.
[10:36]  You: bye 01
[10:36]  You: :)
[10:36]  Alaya Kumaki: bye hifeng;)
[10:36]  any1 Gynoid: i think KEEF is a leader... big time... she also gave us the ChatBot/Minsky discussion.. idea.. IMHO... that was the most fun... best discussion we've ever done
[10:36]  any1 Gynoid: historic IMHO
[10:37]  Alaya Kumaki: keef is a colorfull person yes
[10:37]  You: alaya, what about the snow storm?
[10:37]  Alaya Kumaki: it turn into gresill now
[10:38]  You: fiuuuuuuuu
[10:38]  Alaya Kumaki: maybe rain after,, dont now
[10:38]  Alaya Kumaki: .. an electricity bakadge of line... as usuall
[10:38]  Alaya Kumaki: breakage
[10:39]  You: but you could keep your connection
[10:39]  Alaya Kumaki: now yes
[10:39]  You: ty Kariin:)
[10:39]  Kariin Thorne: hi
[10:40]  You: hi:)
[10:40]  Salahzar Stenvaag: have good time all... go back to my SL hobbies :)
[10:40]  Kariin Thorne: what do you talking about?
[10:40]  any1 Gynoid: BBYE EVERYONE! I DUV U GUYS!!!
[10:40]  You: ciao sal!
[10:40]  You: bbyyee
[10:40]  You: any1
[10:40]  Alaya Kumaki: have fun on your star sahlazar
[10:41]  You: so good bye also from me !
[10:42]  You: I start saving chatlogs