Amras: nyan
Tora: hi
Amras offers cookie
Tora: o.o
Amras: cookie.
Amras: Baked good.
Amras: With chocolate.
Amras is now Online.
Amras: death and pestilence flavored
Tora: but rena's making bacon
Amras: >:c
Amras: poor piggy
Tora: humans are omnivores =P
Tora: and i'm a human
Amras: questionable
Tora: we have canine teeth
Amras: yes
Amras: but domesticated pigs sicken me
Amras shrugs
Tora: and while it is possible to survive on a vegatarian diet, it's only with effort to get the right nutrients
Tora: suggesting we evolved eating meat
Amras: yeah
Amras: just....piiigs
Tora: are tasy!
Tora: tasty
Amras: waaah
Amras is now Online.
Amras is now Online.
Amras is now Away.
Amras is now Online.
Amras is now Online.
Amras: I can't rid myself of the impression you have a very apathetic approach to our friendship
Tora: ?
Amras: apathy, indifference
Amras: not sure why, exactly
Tora: uh sorry if i'm not falling over myself to be your fucking best friend. i don't want it to hurt again when you invariably suddenly decide that you hate me again.
Tora: amazingly enough, i have feelings too.
Amras: What's the point of even letting me back onto EqS, then? or adding me to your Steam friends list?
Amras: wouldn't it have been easie to just tell neone to tell me to fuck off?
Amras: *easier, neona
Amras: . . .
Tora: i like talking to you, i just don't want to get hurt
Amras: Because you're the only one under that risk...
Amras: and why would you want to talk to someone who apparently offends every inch of your being with every word he says?
Tora: i don't know why i would want to talk to someone like that. i'm not sure how that's relevant, since you don't do that.
Amras: you seem to claim I do
Tora: i don't claim that
Amras: besides, friendship carries with itself more than cold conversation
Tora: there is a middle ground between "OMG I HATE YOU" and "OMG BEST FRIENDS 5EVER"
Amras: cold indifference? passive agresiveness? so-called acquaintanceship, aka polite respect for each others' existance?
Tora: it's possible to be friends without being best friends and talking to each other every second
Amras: I never claimed we should be talking to each other every second
Tora: i don't even talk to most of my irl friends as much as i talk to you
Tora: even the irl friend that i actually hang out with
Amras: I couldn't care less how MUCH we talk
Amras: I was talking about your apparent indifference to my very being
Tora: uhhhhhh how the hell am i being indifferent to your very being?
Amras: "I like talking to you, but I don't give a damn about your emotions"...basically
Amras: very basically...
Amras: let me try to rephrase
Tora: you only attempted to talk to me again like... a day ago
Amras: "I like talking to you and all but buck if I care about your life, your emotions, the things that happened during your day"
Amras: because most of the conversation we were having was you blindly accusing me of every possble kind of prejudice
Tora: no actually, just because you like to pretend that that's what i said/meant doesn't mean that i ACTUALLY SAID THAT
Amras: actually, it sort of does
Amras: sort of meant literally
Tora: ok so like, if i suddenly decide that you claimed to enjoy eating babies, it means that you said that?
Amras: language is a two-part beast, an encryption of a thought, communication is imperfect
Tora: so you did say that, that's what you're saying?
Amras: "Amras claimed to enjoy eating babies" translates fairly directly to "Amras said, 'I enjoy eating babies'" in everyday understanding
Amras: "You're accusing me of A and B" translates usually to "I feel that you feel I'm A and B"
Amras: and I don't like coming across as A and B
Tora: you can't just DECIDE that i said something that i DIDN'T FUCKING SAY
Amras: it's a bit ironic you'd say that, since you're twisting what I just said
Amras: by saying it
Tora: you're sayng that i accused you of something when really you "feel that i feel" that
Amras: I claimed the two statements are synonymous
Tora: so basically you just fucking DECIDED something and are accusing me of saying it
Amras: and any chance neona'll stop gaming anytime soon?
Tora: when i didn't
Amras: you ignored what I said
Tora: "uh, it depends" she says
Amras: on what?
Tora: she doesn't know what she can do to help
Amras: oh
Amras: I guess you'll have moral support, at least
Amras: I'll just cry into a pillow if things get rough
Tora: ...
Amras: 8:51 PM - Amras: "I like talking to you and all but buck if I care about your life, your emotions, the things that happened during your day"
Amras: you also didn't respond to that
Tora: i don't know what i'm supposed to say, since i have no idea why you even think that
Amras: I don't think you've once apologized for doing something that hurt me
Tora: because it's usually things like "pointing out that something you said was problematic"
Amras: that's irrelevant!
Tora: no, no it's not. pointing out that you said something not ok is not a reason to apologize.
Amras: The elitism of that statement aside, that's exactly my point; you're ignoring my emotions completely
Tora: so if i said something bad about you being polish (idk of anything i might say, but just for the sake of argument) and you were like "that's not an ok thing to say" and i was like "waaah you hurt my feelings by not liking it when people say problematic things, you don't understand how i feel, coming from a position of privilege" then you would apologize to me, despite the fact that i was the one who originally hurt your feelings and refused to apologize or even acknowledge that i had done anything wrong, and in fact accused YOU of being wrong for thinking that i could possibly say anything bad?
Amras: yes
Tora: you're not supposed to say yes. i'm WRONG in that hypothetical situation.
Amras: that's irrelevant
Amras: firstly, I don't subscribe to objective morality
Tora: so if i went up to a black person and called them a "nigger", they would have no right to dislike that because it would hurt my feelings?
Amras: secondly, the question of emotions, very clearly stated, overrides morality in my case, since I consider you a friend
Amras: let me see if I can phrase this better...
Amras: an apology in these scenarios is an apology for hurting a friend's feelings. It's not a claim that you'll never correct them again, merely that you understand they have their sensitivities as well and are willing to reach a compromise in which neither of you is hurt
Tora: let me see if i can phrase this better: your feelings are not the only ones that matter.
Amras: even a "sorry, but" would be better to hear than a "I won't apologize because you're objectively wrong in my subjective worldview"
Amras: I didn't say my feelings are the only ones that matter, hence /compromise/
Amras: I'm sorry if earlier I couldn't give a valid reason for breaking contact with you, but I think this might be it
Tora: when you refuse to even ACKNOWLEDGE that there's even a REASON for me to object to what you say, let alone APOLOGIZE for it, then no, i'm not going to fucking apologize to you!
Amras: Did I refure to acknowledge it, though? I only asked for an apology, those aren't synonymous
Tora: yes, you did.
Amras: . . .
Amras: not directly
Amras: you're being hypocritical
Amras: you claim what you said cannot be determined by how I interpret it
Tora: no, i'm fucking not! because, amazingly enough, YOUR PRIVILEGED ASS IS NOT THE CENTER OF THE FUCKING UNIVERSE
Amras: neither is yours
Tora: i never said it was.
Tora: you're REFUSING TO EVEN ACCEPT THAT MY FEELINGS ARE VALID IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM
Tora: OR THAT MY FEELINGS MIGHT EVEN EXIST
Amras: Sorry if I'm coming across like that, no suck intention
Tora: BECAUSE, YOU KNOW WHAT? I'M ALSO A HUMAN BEING
Amras: *such
Tora: i hope that someday you somehow find yourself as part of an oppressed minority and have someone saying this shit to you so you'll understand how wrong you are
Amras: your arguments aren't making sense anymore
Amras: I'm not your oppressor, for one thing
Amras: and you're making logical jumps which lack any substance
Amras: "you're being hypocritical" "no I'm not because you're not the center of the universe"
Tora: it doesn't matter. you're basically saying that it's ok to say things that have been historically used to oppress me and people like me, and that i have no right to object to that
Tora: you're basically telling me to apologize for my own oppression
Amras: . . .
Amras: would you mind looking over this conversation again when you're calm?
Tora: and you don't understand that because you aren't oppressed
Amras: sorry about that
Tora: don't fucking try to dismiss my feelings by calling me hysterical
Tora: holy fuck don't even go there
Amras: That's not at all what I'm trying to do
Amras: your feelings are very valid, but your claims are not
Amras: especially relating to what I said
Tora: but your claims of "wah why don't you try to look at it from the perspective of someone who has never had to deal with oppression" ARE valid?
Amras: I can offer you a hug and some consolation, though I think I may not be the best person at the moment...
Amras: otherwise, I honestly don't see where this conversation can even go in terms of debate....since that's the form it seems to be loosly parodying
Amras: now I have to eat, I'll be back in a bit
Tora: you know, i was actually willing to not talk about this, but you decided to bring it up.
Amras is now Away.
Amras is now Online.
Amras: I brought it up on purpouse
Amras: otherwise, it'd have been a heavy unresolved stone in our friendship
Tora: uh i was willing to move on and go from here actually
Tora: but then you brought it up
Amras: go from where?
Tora: from when you started talking to me again
Amras: just sticking to your indifference?
Tora: if you think that not thinking everything you say is perfect is "indifference" then you have a problem and it's not me
Amras: . . .
Tora: i am allowed to object to things you say
Amras: yes, you are
Tora: then stop acting like i'm not
Amras: the two are unrelated
Amras: well, they're sort of related, but indirectly
Tora: just because you say that doesn't make it try
Tora: true
Amras: :/
Amras: Just because I say your indifference and the argument we were having are related only indirectly- what?
Amras: I can get that we can put aside the whole prejudice and apology thing, I support that, but your indifference remains independently of that
Tora: just because you pretend i don't care about your feelings doesn't make it so
Amras: . . .
Amras: in what way do you care, though?
Amras: I've never once been able to come to you with a problem
Amras: I don't remember you even asking how my day went
Tora: if you want to tell me about your day, you may do so
Tora: you don't need my prompting
Amras: thank you for your permission, your majesty
Tora: if i have something i want to say to someone, i say it. i don't expect them to know that i want to tell them and ask about it because i understand that other people can't read my mind.
Amras: that's still ignoring the fact I can't come to you with a problem
Amras: because I'll be instantly dismissed with a claim that I'm not the most important person in the world
Tora: what, your problems like "i said something problematic to someone and they didn't fall to their knees to kiss my feet"?
Amras: you're bringing that up again
Amras: after claiming you don't want to
Tora: i can't remember any other problems that i've responded to in that way
Amras: . . .
Amras: Sorry if my memory isn't perfect, but I distinctly remember you bringing up your depression whenever I tried to mention mine
Tora: you tend to bring up your depression in order to get sympathy
Tora: which is pointless, since i have depression too, so i'm not going to give you special treatment for it.
Amras: . . .
Amras: no- I mean, yes, I want sympathy, but not for sympathy's sake.
Amras: I bring up a depression because I seek consolation of some description
Tora: you tend to bring up your depression in situations that suggest you want special treatment for it
Amras: I honestly don't see how you'd treat me any different from a run-of-the-mill acquaintance
Amras: in theory, you can defend your indifference with vague claims and reasonable arguments based on those claims, but that doesn't change the fact I can't come to you when I'm in need
Tora: i have problems of my own and don't always have the emotional capacity to deal with everyone else's too?
Amras: . . .
Amras: and that makes me the gloaty one?
Tora: what, because i can't always deal with your problems, i'm gloating? what?
Amras: no
Amras: I just fail to see the point
Amras: of the friendship
Amras: As in, how does either of us benefit from thi?
Amras: *this
Tora: friendship doesn't need to have a point
Amras: . . .
Tora: if two people enjoy talking to each other, they are friends
Amras: . . .
Amras: I fail to see the reasoning there
Amras: and even so, the point of said friendship would be to have someone to hold interesting conversations with
Amras: but I do fail to see the reasoning
Amras: and I thought I made it clear that you're coming across as significantly indifferent and I find indifference physically painful
Amras: almost physically, at least
Tora: you're only friends with people when you gain something from the friendship?
Amras: no
Amras: that would be selfish
Tora: and wtf am i supposed to do, ignore my own problems and try to fix yours?
Amras: . . .
Amras: no...
Amras: just that you seem to claim the only reason this friendship still exists is that you like something about the way I talk
Tora: ah well sorry that my autism makes it difficult to adequately express why i want to be friends with you. i'm sure it's very difficult being friends with someone with a disability. aren't you so noble.
Tora: like seriously it's not like i go to you with my problems.
Amras: you can't hide behind your disability
Tora: and i happen to know that you already talk to rena about your problems
Amras: and at least I wouldn't mind if you wanted to talk to me about yours
Tora: that would be selfish though
Tora: i'm not emotionally equipped to deal with your problems right now, so i'm not going to load mine onto you
Amras: . . .
Amras: I fail to see the reasoning there, as well
Tora: i don't want to take if i can't give
Amras: That's where I fail to see the point of this friendship
Tora: most friendships don't involve loading all of your problems onto each other
Amras: On the emotional problems front, we're locked in a state where I can't share mine because of yours and you won't share yours because I can't share ine
Amras: . . .
Amras: what else, then?
Amras: gaming? we don't do any of that
Tora: most of the people i refer to as my friends are people i see once in awhile to do fun stuff
Amras: . . .
Tora: or people i enjoy talking to
Amras: what happened to "a friend in need"?
Tora: i only have 2 irl friends that i go to with my problems. i'm dating one of them. well, maybe 3, but one of them doesn't count very much because i rarely talk to him and when i do, most of our conversations consist of non-sequitors
Amras: . . .
Tora: for example, that particular friend chose to inform me today that i was not, in fact, his real dad.
Tora: and that's pretty much the entire conversation we had.
Amras: ok
Amras: I don't see how any of this applies
Tora: a "friend" can be someone that you like talking to, that you have things in common with or that you like doing things with, without loading all of your problems onto each other. especially if one of you doesn't want to do that for some reason and really would just prefer to have light-hearted conversations
Amras: . . .
Tora: maybe i don't want to talk to you about my problems because i don't want to think about them all the time
Amras: isn't that an acquaintance, though?
Tora: no, it's just not as close of a friend
Amras: I was under the apparent illusion that friends come to each other in times of need
Amras: or at least are available to turn to
Amras: maybe I just live in an idealistic world...
Tora: we may get to the point where we can go to each other with all our problems and shit, but friendships like that take TIME
Amras: and I need to come to terms with the dark reality
Amras: maybe the friendships I thought I had are mere illusions
Amras: and my friends are ready to abandon me at a moment's notice
Tora: that's not what i said
Amras: You claimed that a friendship which starts out well is not what I define as a friendship
Amras: since it's only possible to get to that state with time
Tora: that's how it is for me, anyway
Amras: My worldview is shattered
Tora: i don't trust people immediately
Tora: especially when they've hurt me
Tora: you're going to have to regain my trust
Tora: since you suddenly decided you hated me and blocked me
Amras: . . .
Amras: this seems like an awful lot of work to benefit mostly you
Tora: what, continuing to talk to me is "an awful lot of work"?
Amras: gaining trust
Amras: it's tedious
Amras: and in the meantime you'll just strike blows of guilt
Amras: and indifference
Amras: the end result not even being what I define as friendship
Tora: wow, seriously? you complain about people not wanting to be friends with you, but the instant someone DOES want to be your friend, you insist that it's not worth your effort.
Tora: because that's a great way to make people like you
Amras: . . .
Amras: you don't want to be my friend, though
Tora: i do
Amras: you want to have someone to talkto
Amras: that seems to be about it
Tora: for now, yes
Amras: . . .
Tora: that doesn't mean that won't change
Amras: . . .
Amras: but only if I retain a resistance to any guilt you decide to throw at me
Amras: whether justified or not
Amras: or indifference
Tora: you're basically trying to guilt me into either talking about things i'm not really ready to talk about, especially not with someone who just started talking to me again, or taking on more of an emotional burden than i can handle
Amras: no
Amras: bucking no
Amras: I'm trying to bucking not hurt you again
Amras: mostly
Amras: and I'm trying to understand what you're saying
Amras: since you honestly seem to be benifiting from this relationship about as much as I'm losing
Amras: probably less
Amras: even from a utilitarian perspective, it doesn't make sense
Tora: you're losing by, what, talking to me about things other than our respective emotional problems?
Amras: . . .
Amras: losing my sanity, for one
Amras: I'm starting to get literally sick from this
Tora: why did you re-add me if you don't actually want to talk to me?
Amras: like, physically unwell
Amras: I wanted to talk to you, I was hoping neona would hold up to her offer of mediating
Amras: I wanted to resolve the issue
Tora: she says "that doesn't mean i'm available every waking minute to do that, but i'm open to doing it"
Amras: I know
Amras: I might as well cry myself to sleep at this point
Amras: not even sure what I'm trying to achieve anymore
Amras: Maybe this friendship really has run its course
Tora: you're going to cry yourself to sleep over the fact that your actions have consequences? and also that other people also have problems?
Amras: What do you think of formally ending it while my sanity holds up?
Amras: since at this point you seem to be losing as well
Tora: once again, why the fuck did you re-add me if all you wanted to do was express your eternal loathing of me?
Amras: . . .
Amras: I wanted to apologize
Amras: and try to fix things
Amras: but seems I've just made it worse
Amras: so I'm backing down before I do more damage
Tora: you haven't apologized. all you've done so far is accuse me of things that i haven't done.
Amras: I'd just like your approval
Amras: then I'm bucking sorry
Amras: for everything
Amras: for ever speaking to you, even
Tora: that's not an apology. that's just being passive aggressive.
Amras: it's an honest apology
Amras: can't really show it through IM
Tora: uh huh.
Amras: but it is
Amras: hearfelt
Amras: *heartfelt
Tora: rena also says that that's not a real apology, for the record
Amras: tear-filled apology
Amras: screw the terminology, it's an apology
Amras: if you don't want to accept it, that's your loss
Tora: no, you're just being passive aggressive
Amras: I'm NOT
Amras: How should I express this apology, then?
Amras: SORRY
Amras: SORRY
Amras: how is that passive agressive?
Amras: I'm really, really sorry
Amras: for my coming across as passive agressive, for bothering you, for hurting you
Amras: I can add anything else if you want
Amras: now can this please just end?
Amras: it feels like I'm in a nightmare and I haven't even fallen asleep yet
Tora: a nightmare where you make up things to be upset about, then yell at me for them?
Amras: sorry, shouldn't have said that
Tora: and then accuse me of not wanting to be your friend?
Amras: I didn't say that
Amras: I don't want to be yours, and not because I hate you
Tora: why the fuck are you doing this? if you didn't want to talk to me in the first place, then why did you?
Amras: I still like you, I'm just not emotionally fit for a friendship with you
Amras: I did
Amras: but I ruined things
Amras: and now I'm trying to back out
Amras: and I'd appreciate if you'd let me
Tora: you just wanted to do this to hurt me, then? i was fucking WILLING to overlook the shit you did and then all the sudden you're ACCUSING ME OF THIS
Tora: *SHIT
Amras: . . .
Amras: I'm out of this conversation until there's some form of mediator
Amras is now Away.
Amras is now Online.
Amras: well, goodnight